Re: For those in need of some amusement.....

["W Guy Finley" <wgfinley@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

Have sat on the sidelines for a while and I want to tackle this one.

Let me preface by saying that I consider myself a power Winblows user and
have only had Linux for a few months.  Right now I use Winblows almost all
the time since I haven't totally caught on to Linux.  However, I choose to
blame that on my LIMITED UNDERSTANDING and not the OS.

See Chris, I think what you have forgotten is that you once upon a time had
no freaking clue how to use Windows.  I would probably guess you weren't
much of a DOS user given your dread of CLI (command line interface or using
the "command prompt").

However, you plodded along and figured Windows out and it probably took a
while.  You had to, there was no other choice (unless you wanted to buy an
Apple).  NOW, there is a viable alternative out there that's totally
different from what your used to and you have to learn all over again.  BUT,
this time you're coming from having known another OS and you want your new
OS to be your old OS and come simple to you.  Well, it doesn't usually
happen that way.  So you've forgotten when it was difficult for you to use
Windows.

Allow me to get to the point by point:

----- Original Message -----
From: <cjgidman@mindless.com>
To: KLUG Mail List <klug@klug.armintl.com>
Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 4:01 PM
Subject: Re: For those in need of some amusement.....



<big ole snip>
> > I guess you need to update your e-mail client as
> > well.

Uh Chris, it's pretty well known out there that Outlook Express has some
funky formatting.  I've had complaints time and time again from Windows
users using a different program.

As much as you tout it as being the end all be all you would think you would
know how to use it because your entire message is quoted.....I had to go
through and find the double quotes to see what the hell you were writing, a
major pain in the ass.

Secondly, snipping your replies so we get the jist of your replying too is
also helpful (as I have illustrated above prefacing it with <snip>).

> >
> > > Html as a text medium for email is a horrid choice.
> >
> > I disagree.  But that's okay, we are entitled to our
> > opinions.

Now I was rolling on the floor laughing at this one.  Try sending HTML on
any Winblows list and see how many people bitch at you....it's usually those
who don't have an HTML email program, not all of us have one.  Just because
you do doesn't necessarily make it a better format.  Oh sure, you get cutsie
things like bold and whatnot but what good is it if a percentage of your
audience can't read it?

In fact, you're being a little hypocritical here.  Your zealous endorsement
of HTML is similar to the "bigotry" you refer to later on.  Assuming we all
must have sub-standard email programs if we can't read your message?  I have
the SAME freaking program you have and couldn't read it without a headache.
Can you say operator error?

<snip>

> > Let's take a time out for a specific example.  How about browsing the
file
> > system?  (Most users don't even know what that sentence means)  In
windows you
> > double click on a filing cabinet (or magnifying glass over a folder)
and you
> > are shown a tree of folders.  "Inside" these folders is a list of files.
Just
> > like the "real world" I'm used to.  Now, they even put little pictures
next to
> > each of the files that help me understand what they are related to.
And, if I
> > want to see what's in one, usually, I can just double click on it.  God,
it
> > couldn't be much simpler.
> > OTH, in Unix, let's see.  You type ls.  It's two letters, easy enough to
> > remember.  Don't know what it stands for, but I can remember two
letters.  Then,
> > I see a list of words.  Are they files or directories?  Hmmm... How do I
tell?
> > Oh, I know, I'll get help ... man ls...

Someone already called you on this but I feel the need to call you to the
mat as well.  You're comparing Linux' CLI to Windows' GUI.  Let's see, in
KDE I have this neat little thing that is even on the task bar that I click
on and it pulls up the file system!  How intuitive!!  Gosh, it must be a
Micro$oft product!  Oh wait, KDE is a Linux desktop environment (otherwise
known as a GUI).

But again, I posit you must not have any DOS experience because we all
remember the days of typing "dir" and "cd c:/" etc (hell, still do lots of
stuff command line).  You can still get to them, you have this neat little
"DOS Prompt" shortcut or, better yet, you can reboot (seems we do that a lot
in Windows) to DOS mode!!

> > I'll quit here.  Already, I've had to do more reading than I did in
Windows.
> > And, I haven't even opened the file yet.

Gee, I figured this out in KDE and didn't read anything.  I guess since
there wasn't a little "start" on it or a major ad campaign to endorse it
that must be your reason for not getting it.

> > DOS was similar.  I also realize that there are now graphical file
system
> > browsers for the Unix world now too.  This is just an example.  The
point being
> > that MS is working hard/very hard to make their systems easy to learn.
The Unix
> > world doesn't care if you can use it.  If you can't figure out how to
use it,
> > then you don't deserve to be using my software.

Yes, MS is working hard to make their systems easy to learn and easy to
accept rather than looking for the best product.  MS products are great if
you want to do things EXACTLY their way.

> > > > So, it's more than just familiarity.  Something about what Microsoft
does
> > makes it extremely easy for Users and Developers alike to use their
products and
> > develop products using their products.

Hahahahhahahahha.  Now this one I'm dying on.  I want you to come to my
office where I'm not in any IT capacity whatsoever, just your average claims
adjuster who is a wirehead.  I get called away from my desk several times a
DAY to do mundane garbage like copy a file to a floppy!  View a JPEG!  Find
a missing file!!  Oh yes, Windows is so easy to use.  Just like it's easy
for the illiterate to read Finnegans Wake.

Come on Chris, 90% of the populace out there has no clue how to use Windows
yet is exposed to it every day.  I think that would explain why every time I
call the Help Desk on a legitimate issue (like my umpteenth bad Dell laptop)
I'm on hold forever (and no, my company has plenty of resources to hire
people).

> > > > The quantity of documentation I have to read to do simple things.
(I NEVER
> > read that documentation for Windows products.)  The amount of crap I
have to
> > learn that is totally unrelated to the thing that I want to do.

This varies too much to make a comparison.  But there is a plethora of
information out there on Linux, HOWTOs everywhere, this very email list for
help.  Are you telling me you just suddenly woke up one day and could use
Windows?  Come on now.

>>  The total lack
> > of standardization across software packages.

I think this is the whole point Chris, competition, variety, an OS tailored
to the user and not the other way around.

>>  The lack of "plug and playability"
> > of software.

You mean plug and "prayability"?  We must not remember the PnP dark ages
Chris when half the crap didn't work (and still doesn't).  You must never
have too many devices for an IRQ conflict either I assume?  Let's see your
plug and pray under those circumstances.  How about the good ole fashioned
blue screen o'death?  Never have that huh?  I see one daily and I consider
getting Windows to work correctly a daily chore of chasing bugs between
Windows, software drivers, etc.  Where's your standardization now?  Lovely
how M$' next new thing is just another thing to crash my system (i.e. IE4,
DX6 and others on their initial release).  Yes, M$ products are so great
they never have to release umpteen fixes and service packs!  Better yet,
they don't have to BUILD IN Win98 a system to get said fixes and service
packs!

<snip>
> > > So are any of those user's qualified or have the inclination to be
your
> > > sys. admin. since you claim incompetence, ignorance or lack of time?
> >
> > This is the kind of pompous bigotry that clearly shines through in the
> > Unix world.  If someone is having problems getting a system running,
> > assume first that he's an idiot.  It's fortunate that not all KLUG
> > members have this kind of attitude or Linux would never make it.

This is pretty interesting Chris, I've seen people get on this list and ask
some pretty dumb questions and rarely a harsh rebuke.  Sure RTFM is a little
strong but it's TRUE.  If you're having a problem with something you should
always check the documentation first.  Just like all those nifty README
files in Windows you just skip over.

I've been on various mailing lists and newsgroups where Windows users just
simply installed their program and something didn't work and their problems
were miraculously solved when I directed them to the README file.  I find
your advocacy of Windows' "ease of use" to be a complete joke.  There
couldn't be anything out there more unstandardized or buggy.

<snip>
> > >
> > > That is exactly how many proprietary computer software companies want
you
> > > to think.  The question is why is it not a big deal?
> >
> > Because, as I said further down, the time saved in learning curve
outweighs
> > the time lost due to rebooting.

Oh, this one is rich Chris.  I was writing an estimate on a guy's car today
when I had one of my usual Windows lockups thus requiring a reboot.  I
happened to be writing a 100+ line (each line is a repair operatoin) $8000
estimate on a guys car.  I was 75% done when my system locked up.

Guess where all that work went?  You guessed it....into cyber never never
land.  I had to rewrite the whole thing.  Yes, I can see where you would
want to accept an inferior program or system in exchange for rebooting.  I
just LOVE redoing work.  Kindof like this reply I was typing to you the
other day!

<snip>
> > >
> > > You aren't making sense.  How often does your car "crash" and have to
be
> > > "rebooted".  I mean if you are driving down the road and your car just
> > > dies, you will be one pissed off car owner.  Yet it happens to you on
your
> >
> > But this happens every day to lots of car owners all over the world,
doesn't
> > it?  It's life.  It's accepted.  Maybe not if you're an ambulance
driver,
> > but the "average" car driver has learned to accept that sometimes things
> > don't work.  Your car is reliable enough.

Hahahahhahahah!!  Only someone from Michigan would say that vehicle
breakdown is acceptable!!  You're right Chris, from this reply alone I think
you are well suited to having an unreliable OS.

I can't believe you wrote this.  You mean DAILY failure of your vehicle is
something you accept?  Windows fails for me on a DAILY basis so if I were to
accept your logic I should accept the same for my car.

Well Chris, I got news for ya, I don't expect that which probably explains
why I'm learning Linux and drive a Honda!


> > Now, you may argue that your car doesn't die once a week or that you'd
be
> > upset if it did.  I say that the auto industry has many more years of
R&D
> > behind it than the Operating System industry does.  So, you expect more
from
> > your car.  And besides, if All you had to do was wait a few minutes and
> > restart it, you could deal with it.  People with old cars do it all the
> > time.  It sure beats becoming a mechanic in order to have a car that's
as
> > reliable as an ambulance.  This is especially true if you are, say, an
> > electrician.  You need to spend your time learning your trade, not
becoming
> > a mechanic. Can't you see this?

Backtracking a little aren't we?  Amazing how you justify Windows' well
known failures.  What we're trying to pour into your cranium Chris is that
Linux DOESN'T require constant rebooting.  Last time I checked, Linux hasn't
benefitted from decades of R&D experience.

Secondly, YOU have to realize that Linux is CUTTING EDGE, and in its
infancy.  You're expecting a fault free product right out of the box.
They're working on it!  Sure, it can be a little difficult now but does that
mean its inferior?  Hardly.  I call a big fat resource gobbling GUI on top
of an ancient operating system inferior (read WINDOWS).

> > > > Microsoft has capitalized on ease of use and sacrificed reliability.
Yet,
> > the stuff is reliable enough to suit most needs.  In those minutely few
cases
> > were reliability is life critical, Linux/UNIX alone won't solve the
problem
> > either.

Actually, Microsoft is doing a great job of employing people.  Like I said
earlier, my company is CONSTANTLY hiring Help Desk people because of all the
problems they have in Windows.  You should argue that Windows' unreliability
is helping the economy Chris!

Oh, and "minutely few cases where reliability is life critical".  Gee Chris,
stuck in the 50s are we?  Everything from traffic lights to telephones is
operated by computers now.  Shoot, newer cars have computers controlling
everything.  Now, they don't require an operating system per se but to say
there aren't many computer systems out there where reliability is critical
is preposterous.  Ask Amazon.Com how much business they would lose if they
lost their system for just 5 minutes for a reboot.  Sure, this isn't life
critical but it's business critical.

Everything but gaming is critical my friend, it's critical to someone.  Like
it was critical for me to get my estimate done in an hour so I could get to
the next customer but couldn't because my laptop locked up.

> > Then, I counter that usability doesn't have to be sacrificed to give
> > reliability.  But the Linux/UNIX world has done this.  You've bought the
PR job
> > on the other side of the fence.
> >
> > You must put your resources into one or the other.  MS has chosen to put
it into
> > usability.  I think that's were the most benefit lies.

<snip>
Another great one Chris, you're full of these.  Usability is more important
than reliability?  Huh?  Now how usable is something if IT DOESN'T WORK????
Hmmmm.  Ponder that one.


> > A different opinion.  Without quantifiable data all we have to go on is
personal
> > feel, based on our own experiences.  I feel that Windows is stable
enough to
> > outweigh the ramp time required to get Linux going.

Stable?  Constantly rebooting, blue screens of death, work constantly lost,
time wasted waiting for reboot, time chasing down conflicts......none of
these things is unstable?  No Chris, it's not stable.  You just think it is,
and you've grown to accept something that breaks all the time.  I suggest
you check out the movie Tucker and see what it's like building a better
mousetrap and the misconceptions one must overcome in doing it.  Or, look at
the history of a company like Honda.  A company that made motorcycles and
decided to start making cars.  Oh sure, no one would buy those little cars,
they aren't any good, how could a motorcycle company make a car??

The American public ACCEPTED gas guzzling unreliable cars and bought the Big
3 line on why Hondas and other imports were no good.  Well, a few "cutting
edge" Americans purchased those 600cc air cooled cars and the resulting
improvements from the company.  Now we have today: Americans aren't as dumb
as most people think we are because the last time I checked the top three
selling cars were all Imports (I should say import companies, they're all
made in the USA) and it's pretty much been that way for 10 years.

> > >
> > > How do we give you experiences that will reverse your jade cynicism?
> >
> > When Linux reaches a point where I can use it to do real work without
> > spending more than 10% of my ramp time learning system administration,
> > I will reconsider.  Until then, Linux is a hobby.

I still haven't figured out where running Linux requires system admin
abilities?  I certainly have none and my distro nicely installed all the
important programs I wanted to use.  Most downloads install easily.  Sure, I
had to learn how to compile some programs to install them but I considered
myself the better for it.....I've learned more about how computers WORK
thanks to Linux and not just how to work them.  In case you haven't noticed,
this can be a very valuable asset in the workplace.

--Guy

My apologies to those who have problems with my Outlook Express goofy
formatting....maybe Chris can tell me how to uninstall it!! ;)