Re: Programming?

["Robert G. Brown" <bob@xxxxxxx>]

>>>I took an APL class in college (along with a couple dozen
>>>other programming languages), and I'd stay as far away from
>>>APL as possible.
>>I don't know what sort of APL class this was, what the goals were, etc.
>>One of the areas that has been revised heavily since you and I were in
>>college was how APL is taught, and how APL is used to teach things like
>>the discipline of programming.
>>I never took an APL cource in college, but I monitored a couple later on,
>>and some of them were TERRIBLE! I won't bother defending them. That was also
>>a long time ago.
>APL was taught by someone I took some other programming classes from.
>I enjoyed his other classes.  Other than that, I don't know how my
>class rates amoung others.
Beats me. What we found had little to do with instructors. The approach used
to teach APL was somewhat wrongheaded; a few of us were able to document a more
effective way of teaching it. I've had a very high percentage of students that
have been "getting it', and gone to be successful APL (and non-APL) software
developers.

>>>It's nothing like any programming languages used today (other than a
>>>few oddball applications still using APL).
>>I don't understand the the use of the term "oddball". Is e-commerce oddball?
>>Personnel systems? Banking? Manufacturing? Financial modeling? Insurance?
>Is the word "nitch" better?
I don't know... niche? Still depends on what you mean. You'll find APL all over
the map, alongside other applications.

>My point is:  if there was a pie chart of number of active programs
>in the world broken down by programming language, I'd bet APL would
>be in the < 1% slice.

>Most places don't use it, and they never have!
But Bruce, you can STILL make the same statement about LINUX, and lots of 
other products.

One of the interesting things about the Linux community is that tools with 
merit are looked at and used, regardless of how "popular" they are. Sometimes
Linux allows people to take a new look at a tool, and the people taking that
look have a fresh perspective. Where would PERL be without Linux? Tk? Tcl?
You can bet that at one time "Most places" didn't use these tools either, and
some of these tools would even exist without the Free Software movement in 
general, and Linux in particular.

>>>I'd think it'd be more confusing than helpful.
>>We must agree to disagree here, your experience with APL is more remote,
>>casual, and (unfortunately) not as successful as my own. I'll stand by what
>>I've said, done, taught, and accomplished over the years with APL.
>>
>>I recall that a couple of years ago, we were all reading about that "oddball"
>>OS -- Linux! :)
>Is APL growing as fast as Linux?  Is APL growing at all?
I'm not sure ANYTHING is growing as fast as Linux. But Linux is not good 
becasue it is growing so quickly. This may HURT Linux in time.

The growth of APL is more problematic, but growth is not the only sign of merit.
I've seen APL grow and level off, then grow again. Right now, it's undergoing
something of a revival, as people in new disciplines discover it and start to
exploit it in their own work. Good APL demographics are hard to come by, since
many APL users are not professional programmers, but other professionals work-
ing in their own disciplines.

>I think a FIRST programming language should be something that's
>commonly found in most workplaces, or at least vaguely resemble
>a common programming language.  APL doesn't look like any other
>programming language I've ever seen.  
Ah, here is one place where we differ. I feel that the first programming
language one takes up is best chosen for it's ability to support the 
novice programmer, allow that person to focus on some things and not others.
I have some fairly definite ideas about what those things are; program design,
algorithm construction, logic and execution flow, re-use of components, modular 
programming, time-storage tradeoffs, interface design and development, and 
version control. 

Once you've learned those things, you're ready for more, perhaps more mundane
topics, and additional disciplines. The benefits and economics of declarations 
are clearer when you move from a declaration-free environment to something that 
requires them., for example.  I claim that you'll have a deeper understanding
and appreciation for other practices that are imposed by different programming
systems; they won't merely be dictated to you.

                                                         Regards,
                                                          ---> RGB <---